Reference:5517: Difference between revisions

|description=The 5517 is the British military Submariner. Three batches across roughly 1972-1979, fixed bars, full 60-minute bezel, sword hands, T SWISS T tritium dial. Phillips Geneva XIV 2021 CHF 504,000 result is the public auction record.

|image=Ref 5517 hero.webp

[[File:Ref 5517 hero 3.webp|thumb|center|640px|alt=Rolex 5517 Submariner|Rolex 5517 Submariner]]

The 5517 is the MilSub: the British military Submariner, purpose-built for the Ministry of Defence and never sold through any retail channel. Production ran across three batches roughly 1972 to 1979 in two distinct serial bands — the 3.9M cluster for the early 5513 and 5513/5517 double-reference watches, the 5.3M cluster for the dedicated 5517 batch.

| Submariner (no date, military-issue)

| Royal Navy (SBS) and British Army (SAS); never retailed

| approximately 1972 to 1979 across three batches (Major-house lots)

| contested. ~1,200 produced / ~180 known (Bourn, Italian Watch Spotter consensus); 1,110 / ~300 (Wind); 1,250 / unstated ; 1,500 / "less than 500" (Sotheby's, Phillips HK)

| ~250 produced / ~50 known (Phillips MilSub-discovery article — only 5517-only subset figure surfaced)

| caliber 1520, 26 jewels (Major-house lots universal: Phillips, Sotheby's, Antiquorum, Bonhams, Horobox all read 1520; the 1570 forum claim looks like contamination from standard 5512 / 5513 cases that can house either)

| full 60-minute graduated, MOD spec — appears on no retail Submariner of the period

| sword / "gladiator" hands across all three batches; some Batch 1 examples shipped with Mercedes hands — sword was factory spec from program inception, Mercedes-handed survivors are mostly later service replacements

The 5517 sits outside the ordinary retail no-date Submariner line. The 5513 was used by various military forces, but those were standard commercial watches procured through military channels. The 5517 was built for British military diving with specifications that appear on no retail Submariner: fixed bars soldered into the lugs, a 60-minute bezel graduated all the way around, a T SWISS T tritium dial, sword hands, and military caseback markings. Each was a Ministry of Defence requirement, not a Rolex commercial choice.

The 5514 (COMEX) and the 5517 are the two non-retail branches of the 5513 era and they sit in different worlds. The 5514 was a civilian-professional watch issued to a French commercial diving company. The 5517 was military, issued to the Royal Navy SBS and British Army SAS. The earliest documented intersection of military issue with the big-crown Submariner is the A/6538 SBS (1957, ~50 examples), which predates the 5517 program by nearly fifteen years.

Production ran in three batches with overlapping serial bands. Total program output is genuinely contested across the auction record and the article cites all five reputable readings rather than picking one.

The first batch carries 5513 lug engravings between the 12 lugs — the clearest sign that the 5517 program starts as a military adaptation of the standard 5513 case rather than a separate case family. Sword hands and 60-minute bezel were the factory spec from the inception of the program, but a small number of Batch 1 5513s shipped with Mercedes hands per drsd.com. Surviving Mercedes-handed MilSubs are mostly service replacements where MOD watchmakers swapped the oxidising sword set.

The second batch keeps 5513 between the 12:00 lugs and adds a 5517 stamp under one lug (commonly the 7:00 lug per established collector taxonomy). The dual-marking pattern captures the transition from repurposed 5513 cases to dedicated 5517 production. Major-house lots places the double-ref batch in the 3.926M serial band — Phillips New York 2019 lot 28 (case 3,926,768, c.1972, issue 688/77), Phillips Hong Kong 2017 lot 807 (case 3,926,923, c.1974, W10 Army issue 941/79), Antiquorum Monaco 2022 lot 77 (case 3,926,842, c.1975, W10 issue 960/79), Sotheby's 2023 lot 64 (case 3,926,898, c.1973), Bonhams 2018 lot 90 (392xxxx, c.1972). Issue years 77 and 79 dominate the cluster.

The third batch carries 5517 between the 12:00 lugs with no 5513 anywhere on the case — the late, full-spec form of the reference. Major-house lots places the pure 5517 batch in the 5.339M serial band: Phillips Geneva XIV 2021 lot 152 (case 5,339,827, c.1978), Sotheby's November 2023 lot 3 (case 5,339,705, c.1978, issue 853/78), the Phillips MilSub-discovery article reunited pair (case 5,339,667, c.1978). All issue years are 78. The Phillips article on the reunited pair gives the only 5517-batch-specific subset figure: ~250 produced, ~50 known.

The 3.9M and 5.3M bands are the two serial clusters that map cleanly. The 4M–5M middle band sometimes cited in dealer copy does not surface in major-house lots and should be treated as cross-batch noise rather than a third serial band.

The 5517 runs caliber 1520. The Major-house lots is unanimous: every Phillips, Sotheby's, Antiquorum, and Bonhams lot description reads cal. 1520 at 26 jewels. The forum-level claim that some 5517 examples carry caliber 1570 is not supported by any major-house lot in documented examples and likely shows contamination from the standard 5512 / 5513 cases that can house either caliber. Treat the 1520 reading as resolved against the 1570 claim.

The 1520 is the long-run non-chronometer caliber that powers the 5513 through most of its run. The 5517's distinction over the standard 5513 is structural — fixed bars, 60-minute bezel, sword hands, military caseback engravings — rather than mechanical.

Matte black with T SWISS T at the bottom of the dial — the dual-T format flanking SWISS, signaling tritium luminous compound. Both T markers are required under UK regulations for tritium-lumed watches. The dial carries the SUBMARINER model text and Rolex Oyster Perpetual above centre on most examples; most MilSub dials carry no depth rating in metric or imperial — the Ministry of Defence did not call for one. Military identity is carried by the T SWISS T marking, the caseback engravings, and the case modifications, not by a separate dial design.

Late-program 5517 dials carry the same Maxi I (1977–1978, early 5M to early 6M serial range) and Maxi II generations documented across the contemporary 5513. The cleanest reference for the Maxi sub-generations. The Sotheby's 2023 lot 3 (case 5,339,705, c.1978) catalogues a Maxi I dial. Maxi III ("lollipop") arrives c.1978 in the 5M–6M range — the latest 5517 dial generation surfaced in major-house lots.

Third-batch examples carry sword (also called "gladiator" or "plongeur") hands across the auction record — wider and more sword-shaped than the standard Mercedes hand and absent from every retail Submariner. Sword hands were factory spec across the entire program Bourn, drsd.com, and the Phillips MilSub-discovery article. drsd.com explicitly notes that some Batch 1 5513 MilSubs "delivered with either sword or Mercedes hands," with the 5517-only batch coming "ONLY with sword hands and full 60-minute bezel." Mercedes-handed MilSubs in collector hands today are mostly service replacements where MOD watchmakers swapped the oxidising sword set after long deployments.

Friction-welded permanent spring bars, soldered into the lugs rather than fitted as removable spring bars — the strap cannot detach underwater if a bar fails. Universal across all three batches, a non-negotiable MOD spec from the program's inception. Sized for NATO-style fabric pass-through; the 5517 will not take a standard Oyster bracelet without removing the fixed bars and refitting standard spring-bar lugs.

Minute gradations all the way around the bezel rather than only at five-minute intervals — minute-by-minute elapsed-time tracking for decompression. Ministry of Defence requirement, appears on no retail Submariner of the period. The earliest 5513 MilSubs surface with both full-60 and standard 0–15 hashed inserts; the 5517-only batch is uniformly full-60.

The dual-engraving pattern splits cleanly between maker and customer. Rolex reference and case-number markings sit on the inner caseback. Military identification — broad arrow, NATO stock numbers, service numbers — sits on the outer caseback. Royal Navy / SBS issue uses the 0552 prefix: ''0552 / 923-7697 / [issue]/[year]'' plus the broad arrow. Army / SAS / W10 issue uses the W10 prefix: ''W10 / 6645 / 99 / 923-7697 / [issue]/[year]'' plus the broad arrow. The T-circle is a dial marking, not a caseback engraving, and articles that describe it as caseback-side conflate two separate authentication tells.

Documented issue numbers in major-house lots: 688/77, 691/77, 853/78, 941/79, 960/79, 395/75. The broad arrow is the British government property mark — any broad-arrow watch in the civilian market either left service through official decommissioning or carries an unclear chain of custody. The mark is never a civilian or retail marking.

[[File:Ref 5517 hero 2.webp|thumb|right|250px|alt=Rolex Submariner Ref. 5517|Rolex Submariner Ref. 5517]]

Military-issue watches were delivered on NATO-style fabric straps rather than metal bracelets, in keeping with the fixed-bar design. The bars do not take a standard Oyster bracelet, and the NATO pass-through is deliberate — the strap continues beneath the watch even if one bar fails, so the watch stays on the wrist. Packaging followed procurement logistics: watches arrived in military stores packaging, not standard Rolex retail boxes.

The 5517 is one of the most faked Rolex references in the market. Extreme value (consistently above USD 200,000 at auction), a comparatively simple base watch (a modified 5513), and the difficulty of verifying military provenance combine to make the reference a fraud target. The conversion path is short: a standard 5513 takes fixed bars, a 60-minute bezel, military caseback engravings, and sword hands. Each step is within reach of a skilled watchmaker, and the finished result can read visually convincing to anyone who has not handled a genuine example.

A critical authentication subtlety surfaces in the Phillips MilSub-discovery article: caseback / movement serial mismatches are documented period practice. SAS operatives returned 5517s to stockroom after missions, and casebacks were swapped during reissue cycles. A "non-matching" 5517 may still be entirely period-correct under this practice — case-back swapping was MOD policy, not a tampering tell. The corollary: a "matching" 5517 is not automatically more authentic than a non-matching one if the chain of custody documents the SAS / SBS reissue pattern.

The dealer-side "5513-T-MOD" and "5517-T-MOD" terminology is collector folklore for service-stripped MilSubs (issue marks rubbed off, parts service-swapped, or never engraved). No registry-quality source treats T-MOD as a distinct taxonomic class. The cleaner taxonomy is the three batches above plus standard 5513 / 5514 COMEX as adjacent military-adjacent references.

Specialist documentation notes a roughly EUR 20,000 value penalty for service-replaced bezels even when the replacement is period-correct. Sword-hand replacement, dial relume, and "added T" (where a non-T dial has the T markers added) are documented fakery vectors on otherwise genuine cases. Three checks carry most of the authentication weight: documented provenance (chain of custody to a specific Royal Navy unit or service number, verifiable against military records); physical inspection by a specialist who can read fixed-bar construction, caseback engraving depth and consistency, bezel graduation quality, and hand proportions against genuine military specification; cross-reference against known examples — the specialist community is small enough that most genuine watches are tracked.

| Phillips Bacs & Russo Geneva || — || 2025 || — || 5517 39mm || USD 401,270

| Bonhams London Knightsbridge || — || 2022 || — || Batch 2 5513/5517, c.1975, original Royal Navy diver provenance, caseback 691/77 || GBP 195,600 incl. premium

| Phillips Bacs & Russo Geneva || — || 2024 || — || 5517 || USD 123,283

| Wannenes Italy || — || 2025 || — || 5517 39mm || USD 182,178

| Fellows Birmingham Luxury Watch Sale || 129 || 2020 || — || 5517, MOD engravings || GBP 174,800 incl. premium (Fellows house record)

| Sotheby's New York || 238 || 2018 || — || 5517 c.1978, MOD engravings || not publicly listed

| Phillips New York "Winning Icons" || 48 || 2017 || — || 5513/5517, 1979, W10 Army Air Corps || not publicly listed

The Phillips Geneva XIV 2021 result of CHF 504,000 is the public auction record for the 5517. The Sotheby's November 2023 lot 3 at CHF 482,600 sits a few percent below it. Both are 1978 Batch-3 examples in the 5.339M serial band — the late, full-spec form of the reference that defines the modern collector market. Batch-2 5513/5517 double-reference examples cluster EUR 200,000 to GBP 200,000 depending on configuration and provenance. Batch 1 5513-only MilSubs trade lower because of the more frequent service-component drift on early examples.

The market runs on batch identity, completeness of military documentation, and physical condition. Third-batch sword examples in full-spec condition with documented provenance, the service number on the caseback, the matching inside number, and an original T SWISS T dial in an unpolished case sit at the top of the MilSub market.